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I mean it was a giant learning curve when we’ve

I’ve owned 11 businesses up until now

and I thought you know

you kind of get in and they’re all different

so you get into a habit of thinking

they’re all going to be the same

and it’s all going to be easy

and you know

every other business was like this to set up

so this one will be as well

and then I very quickly

learnt that Allied health clinics

have a bit of a mind of their own

and are not like anything else at all

Hello everybody

and welcome to the Healthy Business Lab Podcast

where we to review amazing Allied Health

and related business owners

to learn their nuggets of gold

of what they’ve learnt in business

and from their expertise and today

I’m super excited to have Rebecca Challoner

on the call today from National Peke Centres

Rebecca welcome to the Podcast

thank you thank you for having me

so good to have you here again

we’ve had a pre call chat a little while ago and

you know

a bit of a serial entrepreneur that uses business to

you know create social change in the life

so I’d love for you to share

you know a bit about yourself in the background

and what you’re doing in the

in the space of Allied Health related species

yeah well

I’ve been working in the sort of

disability or Neurodivergence

sort of sector for just over a decade now

a bit longer and doing a variety of things

but with the centres with Peke Centre in particular

it was about we really wanted

myself and my 

the co founder Christina Keeble

we really wanted to create some multi disciplinary

collaborative

Allied Health centres that were neuroaffirming

and back 

five and a half years ago

neuroaffirming practice was not a thing

it didn’t really exist 

and we were so tired of taking our own kids to places

where they saw these kids as a problem to be fixed

rather than han beings to be celebrated

and we said well if

if other people aren’t doing it

we’ll do it and then we’ll create

you know a way where it should be done like that

and then hopefully with any luck

other centres will follow suit

because you know

I’m a big believer if in if you want to see change

you have to just model it

do it and then when you do it

it becomes the way

because when people see that that’s how it can be done

forces the other places to sort of fall into line

and now you know

five and a half years later

no affirming practice is everywhere

and I think more and more clinics

and different health related businesses

are starting to realise just how I

how important it is but also I think this

the community is starting to realise that it’s

do it that way or we’re not going to pay you for services

you know hundred percent

and again

across that time period that you’re talking about

I got I know

that sort of replicates when we

as a family you know

became more aware of Neurodivergence

and with our own kids and the like

and so as you went into that again

we love to share experiments that

that people have done in business

and with their practices

and this idea of modelling and doing

no doubt you’ve had many iterations of what you did

I’d love to hear some of those early sort of

learnings and iterations that you made

that think out in your mind

I mean it was a

a giant learning curve when we’ve

I’ve owned 11 businesses up until now and thought

you know you kind of get in and they’re all different

so you get into a habit of thinking oh it’s it’s

they’re all going to be the same

and it’s all going to be easy

and you know

every other business was like this to set up

so this one will be as well

and then

I very quickly learnt that Allied Health clinics

have a bit of a mind of their own

and are not like anything else at all

so

we had to do some very quick adapting to the industry

which took us a while to

in the first couple of years to figure out the

the set the neuro firming practice side of things

and embedding that was easy

that we just did it how we wanted to see it done

and the multidisciplinary thing

it was easy they get

we found that therapists loved collaborating

so getting that going was really

especially cross discipline

collaboration was really really easy to get going

but there were many things we found hard

but I think the thing I found the hardest

was expecting it to be like any other business

in terms of running it as a business

and it’s a very different beast

it doesn’t run like a coffee shop

I love or yeah

I’d love for you to unpack that a little bit further

because it’s also a part of

you don’t know what you don’t know

and you’ve no doubt Learned that

when you’re talking about specifics

in the Allied Health space

but I think a lot of Allied Health businesses

start out in business

and they’ll hear a bunch of traditional

business coaching or ideas

and those sorts of things

and sort of because you don’t know what you don’t know

and haven’t been in business before

kind of go oh

is that the norm

but notice there might be more friction points in that

as they try to do things

I’d love for you to unpack that

because I think that’s it

some very useful information for our listeners in there

yeah and to be honest

I enjoy running business

and I think you know every business I’ve ever run and

and these are a very wide variety of businesses

within the disability field and outside of it

and they all run they all have similarities

except for Allied Health where it’s so different

and for a variety of reasons

when you’re dealing with you know

you’ve got therapists clinicians who have very much a

an expectation

of how many appointments they’re going to do

how many people they’re going to see

but you’re dealing

you’re also dealing with the political side of things

like the NDIS and stuff like that and

and those two don’t marry up

so what you know

often what clinicians and therapists expect to be

the amount of people they might need to see

what the NDIS for example

is prepared to pay for

that is not going to make the business succeed

cause those two things don’t

you know they don’t meet where they need to meet

to make a business profitable

so you got you have to get very

very creative in ways to make

and really think beyond the box

to try and sort of create profits

but you also have to be really good at accounting

I have a law degree as well

and I use my law degree

so much more than I expected I would as

and I’ve ever needed to use it before

as a business owner

I also feel like I needed to have an accounting degree

I don’t have one I feel I should have one

I know that much about accounting

now as a founder in any other business

I didn’t need to have that much of a tight grip

on finances

because the profit margins were much bigger

in this the profit margins are

it’s hard to make big profit margins

and on top of that we’re dealing in

here in Victoria with a therapist shortage

so it’s hard to get the clinicians

and then we wanted neuroaffirming practice

so they need to be trained

and they need to understand neuroaffirming practice

and then you’re also dealing with things like

recruiters 

who I have a bit of a this passion for

because they will try and get

squeeze as much money out of you as possible

and then they’ll steal the stuff back six months later

so all in all I

we found marrying

keeping the business afloat and the finances

with keeping the culture and the that

you know therapists happy

and keeping the culture there

when you’ve got a shortage

in that particular discipline

is extremely difficult so

so that’s been a huge challenge

yeah yeah

and I’d love for you to share

I guess what are the

some of the the things that you’ve tried

that even potentially you learn from or

you know that then into the what

the what has evolved to being a

again

the nice working model that you’ve evolved to over time

I’d love to hear the

the story of how you’ve stepped through that

and to get to you know where you are today

multiple sites you know

you’re not able to do that

when you’re covering all the things

that you just mentioned off

unless you’ve got a good model

that then you can replicate and

you know

work cross disciplinary as well as cross location

so yeah

I love for you to share a bit of that

how have you gone about that

especially the the culture into the practical

it needs to make money and again

money can be a bit of a dirty word in Allied Health

and health in general in many ways

but to be able to have the impact that you want to have

get the outcomes and those sorts of things

obviously our business needs

need to be sustainable and profitable

but how have you managed to marry that with

you know getting the culture right

above all

cause I guess what I find now that health is so much

but it’s about the people

the very people you know

focused and centric businesses

from a practical staffing point

as well as you know

what we’re doing so

I’d love for your take on that evolution

with your business yeah 

so figuring out the culture took us a first

a couple of years

to really understand the culture of therapists

so we we really

now to sort of keep the success within

you know my retaining staff and

and making people happy in their roles

we work really heavily on things like team time

collab time we build in lots of PD

therapists love PD they love

I love learning so everything that we we

we give therapists and PD

budgets are built into their contracts

but we also do lots tons and

and tons of in house training

loads of it they have

they have so much PD they have too much PD

we have PD channels that we

that people are constantly uploading

and all the therapists are regularly

sort of training each other into

disciplinarily as well

so everybody’s learning from everybody else

as well as learning from external and other people

we PD

team time that sort of thing is really well built in

the other thing we did that made the biggest difference

in terms of being able to retain

the mental health and strength of the therapists

and keeping them happy

whilst also bringing in some money

was we changed the appointment structure

so we we didn’t change their KPIs

their KPIs were always the same

but

we changed the appointments from hourly to 90 minutes

with an hour of that being client facing

and 30 minutes being for set up and

and pack down and 

helping a client transition

if they’re a slower transitioning client notes

all that sort of stuff doing that

it spread the day out more for the

for the therapists

which gate made the day a little bit easier for them

it also meant that we could

it was much easier then to meet their KPIs

because they were doing more billable hours

but with less clients

so it really helped blow of the day

that was that’s the biggest thing we did

because it helped the profits

and it helped the therapist feel happy and settled

and reduce burn I love that

and I think as you were talking about it

all I just pictured was this space was expanding

and there was that way of being able to create space

around appointments

and then even that flow on effect to

you know clients

as you say obviously in this space

there are clients that sometimes need a bit more time

coming in or going out or both

 knowing our own kids

if how

sometimes we have to have to manage that

it’s creating that space

and not feeling pressured around it again

you’re coming back to you know

we love knowing our nbers here

with the financial break background of ours

but highlighting that you’re able to do that

but you said there it actually helped the KPI’s

 that’s super cool

yeah

massively and the other thing was

so our therapists had KPI of five billable hours a day

but when we put them in 90 minutes

we give them four clients

which made six billable hours a day

so it meant that if people dropped off

or there was cancellations

they were still able to easily meet their KPIs

and have that sort of little allowance built in there

but without it taking a toll

if they did hourly appointments

and we then tried to book six in

they’d have six clients a day

but we kept we’re able to keep it at four clients a day

and they can still meet their KPIs

the other thing we did

which made a huge impact for the therapists and for us

was we created an over and above policy

where every time they do go above their KPIs

they get a bonus per billable hour

and we obviously get a bonus as well

so it was

it was bringing in extra additional money to us

was also rewarding the therapist

for going over and above their KPIs

so it meant that they were more likely to

to fill their time better

cause they’re making more money from it

it also meant that

because we were booking in six billable hours a day

it was really easy for them to attain that and get that

well still is really easy for them to get that

that those bonuses

and it helps us because it’s just additional money

that we wouldn’t have had

if they had not pushed over and above

so it’s it’s really

those two things have been the biggest things

to drive culture and profitability at the same time

yeah nice

and it strikes me with that

is that it’s really an intentional design

from both yourselves as the owners 

of the business and designing that out

but also for the clinicians

they can design there as to again

managing their workload with their dollars

and how they want to do that best

at any given point in time

and obviously by the sounds of that

there’s flexibility for them to go hey

I can these aren’t overburdening KPIs

but then I say yeah

I’ve got moment and you know

with where clients are at

then yes

I can do a period where I have to go over and above

and do that type of thing

so

it just creates a coming back to the cultural idea of

that culture of intentional design

and again then that flowing on

comes back to what you said before

about the burnout aspect

that is obviously rife in the field and in their space

that there’s more people then

and team members

that are able to manage their mental health

at the end of the day yeah definitely

and it wasn’t when we first bought the

the over and above in

it was always sort of given to the therapists

as it’s their decision they don’t have to go above

but if they want to they can

and so it’s always been something that’s in their hands

and if they do that should be celebrated

so what we do is sort of say

you know we appreciate anytime that you are doing extra

and we don’t want to force you to do that

so we’ll let you decide and if they don’t do it

it’s fine they’re still hitting their KPIs life

you know happy days

but if they want to

that there’s the opportunities there for them

so we’ve been really big on

trying to spread out their day

and make it as as simple and flexible and

and easy to go navigate as possible

and try and keep them really happy

we put in big blocks of admin time

blocks of team time blocks of collab time

it all all through the week

so they have loads of the collaboration time

I think is one of the things

the therapists really love

having that opportunity

to have that multi disciplinary collaboration

on their clients

and anything they want to discuss or learn about

so we just find that all that sort of thing just helps

really keep that culture going

yep yeah yeah

and I again

it’s interesting to say that again

the simplicity the flexibility and

you know collaborations at the end of the day

I would found from you know

over the past 12 months of doing these Podcast episodes

and you know

the types of guests that we seem to have on

are those ones that are you know

the collaboration seems you know

front of mind and you know

the thirst for knowledge

everybody’s a bit of a lifelong learner

and so you know

what you’re sharing there is just echoing

you know what I’ve been hearing

definitely over the past few of the time

so I’d love for you to I’m

I’m curious at that

that multidisciplinary approach again then

for how that then flows on within your practice

is to the clients that you know

if you’ve got client that potentially

you know needs the support of

you know different modalities at different times of

you know wherever they are and

and whatever their progress has been

or whatever their challenges are

how do you approach that from a

a client centric side of things

yeah and actually

so when we first started it

as well as the neuroaffirming practice is really

which is really what underpins us

the multi disciplinary side of things was the next

most important thing

because we’d had so many experiences

as parents of neurodivergent kids

where you go to a psychologist over here

and then you go to an OT over here

and the psychologist would tell you one thing

and the OT would tell you the opposite

and you go well

who do I listen to and we just went

that should never happen but if they’re not

not just working in the same building

but literally working together

and collaborating on your care

then you know that they’re

everything they’re saying

and the care that they’re giving

and the support and the strategies will all marry up

so that was really really key

which is why you know

for us it’s not just multi disciplinary

lots of disciplines working

in the same space

that collaboration is key to making that work

which is why we build it into their time

so that they have to talk about it

and they have to get together

and discuss their clients

to make sure that it’s really a team approach

so when a client comes in

they’re not getting one therapist

they’re getting a whole bunch of therapists

all working together

and getting the best from every angle

all our therapists are really heavily trained

when they start on neuro firming practice

my myself and my

my co founder Christina

we’re both experts in the field of neurodiversity

ourselves so we do tons of training with them

so when they come in

they standard they’re sitting at individually

straight away is really high

in terms of their knowledge

regardless of whether they’ve been in the industry

for 20 years or a new grad straight out of uni

we really thoroughly train them to get them going

so when they all come together and

and you’ve got all these team members

with all these different knowledge bases

of disciplines then with all this extra training

the client who’s receiving that collaboration

is really getting an incredible support system

and network around them so

so we find it’s really helpful

I love it yeah

and again what you’ve shared as a parent

the parent side of it as well

I think there’s you know

thousands upon thousands of parents out there

that have a have that experience

and at some point they have of

you know

so bring been out to bring that under the one roof

and you just know that everything is so aligned

that’s the big word that I circled here

this is a lovely alignment

 that happens for the clients

that’s great and so I think that that dub tails nicely

what we always like to talk about here as well is the

the transformations we’ve seen

and again some of this I’m

I’m guessing I’m

I’m picturing transformations not only for the clients

but you’ve got but also the team members that no doubt

that grow and evolve and the like

I’d love for you to share

you know one or two

sort of transformations that come front of mind in

you know obviously

you probably got countless of them over the five years

you 

that you touched upon there

but what’s a couple that have

sort of stick front of mind for you

the biggest transformation

which is something that hasn’t happened once

it’s happened loads of times and we see it all the time

is when we bring in a therapist

who doesn’t know what neuroaffirming practice is

or they may have heard it as a buzzword

but they don’t truly understand it

and then we teach them it

and you watch as their eyes widen

and over a period of however long we have

we train them for they realise how core it is

to delivering that really

truly person centred support to the client

and watching them go from someone who didn’t know

or care about neuro firming practice

to someone who it becomes part of who they are

and part of their core beliefs

we’ve seen that loads of times with therapists and it’s

and it’s really fantastic

and the same thing happens with clients

often with parents when they’ve got kids who’ve never

you know that they’ll come to us with this approach of

please fix our child they

they won’t do this they won’t do that

we want to try and make them like if

you know like neurotypical kids

and then we watch them

as we work with the family and work with the parents

we also building parent sessions

so we got lots of

we’re all working together with the parents as well

and help and watch the parents go

from this sort of state of

my kid needs to be like all the other kids to

my kid is amazing exactly as they are

and we want to find them friends who are like them

and make them feel perfect

just as they are yeah

it’s just such a it’s such an incredible thing to see

yeah that’s

I love your phrasing of of it as well is 

I got some little goosebps here

it’s a beautiful way that you touch upon that

and I think highlighting the parent transformation

and that’s probably why I’ve got there as well

cause I know that throughout our learnings when we were

you know

first become aware of you’re a virgin throughout

through our kids and then

you know the

the self evaluation of ourselves as parents as well

that process of just learning at that time

and again hundred percent

I could just picture those light bulb moments

that we seem to constantly have

from being a part of the you know

many of the sessions that we’re a part of with our kids

in the therapist yeah

super cool

so I love that you’ve touched upon that as well

as it’s a lovely Three Way transformation for the end

for the client for the parents and for the therapist

that is so cool

and I think I’ve got couple pages here already

of my notes and so

I’ve got a feeling

that we might need to get you back on

for deeper dives in certain areas

but  I’d love for

for you to share as well

I know you’ve just released a book

by the time this comes out

the book will be you know

couple of months down the path as well

but

I love for you to share where people connect with you

and you know

get some of the many resources that you share you

and you touch upon the amount of 

education you do in the neurodivergent space

I’d love for 

where’s the best place for people to find you

yeah so I have a website

which is just Rebecca challoner dot com

and on Facebook I have a Facebook page as well

I do lots of 

there’s lots of resources on the website

that people like books and

and things like and I do a lot of pds

so I go into a lot of schools and workplaces

and do training there but I have just released a book

a new book on rejection sensitive dysphoria which 

for those of people who don’t know

is a extreme incapacity to process failure

criticism and judgement

for people who are neurodivergent

it’s very extreme so

we really can’t cope with any kind of failure

or criticism even if it’s perceived

it doesn’t have to be real

and it’s such a misunderstood factor

in a lot of neurodivergent people’s lives

so I’ve just recently created that book

and that got released last Friday

so very very new

that’s awesome well

I appreciate the shares and as always

we’ll have

put all those links and details into the show notes

but once again

really appreciate all the nuggets of gold

that you’ve shared with the audience here today

thank you very much Rebecca

and as always everybody

make sure you like

subscribe whichever channel you’re finding this on

we make sure you keep on hearing great stories

and experiments and information

so thanks again Rebecca

we really appreciate your shares today